Season 5, Episode 2: Questions and Antlers

April 25, 2025

Daniel interviews local author Laurie Dove to talk about her bestselling new crime novel Mask of the Deer Woman.

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcription. Some errors may occur. If you find a transcription error, please contact us with any corrections and we will make those corrections as quickly as possible.

[MUSIC]

Daniel Pewewardy, voiceover: Hey, welcome to Read Return Repeat. I'm your host, Daniel Pewewardy. This is season five, episode two, so this is my first solo outing. So this is my intro, and I got Kyle in the studio with me today.

Kyle Holly, voiceover: Hey.

Daniel Pewewardy, voiceover: Kyle's our engineer, so, yeah, lots of changes. New lineup with the host, me, but we're still trying to gonna keep the podcast, have our author interviews. We got our first one today with Laurie Dove. Also, like the library system's got a lot of changes. We've got a lot of remodels going on. We just had Westlink open up. You make it out there yet, Kyle?

Kyle Holly, voiceover: Actually, I have, yeah. I've been, I've been getting photos and videos behind the scenes before they opened up officially.

Daniel Pewewardy, voiceover: That's cool. What do you think?

Kyle Holly, voiceover: Honestly, it feels like the baby version of the downtown library, like it's not less than, it's just the technology is all there from, like, this location, the downtown location.

Daniel Pewewardy, voiceover: Yeah.

Kyle Holly, voiceover: And we just, like, put it there, because it's like our second biggest branch, busiest branch. So it's a well-deserved upgrade for sure.

Daniel Pewewardy, voiceover: Yeah, that's the vibe I got, too. Like, I like the decoration. I know there's like, they got the, like, cool illustrations and I like the colors, and they have all this cool stuff. They have, like, a teen space like the downtown branch. They also got study rooms and, like, an outdoor space now. So it's really kind of cool to see us doing this because I love the Advanced Learning Library. I like working in this new building. I know a lot of people are, like, hesitant to go, like when we moved here, there's a lot of people that were sad about the old building not being a library anymore. And I will say, like I grew up in Rockwell, and Rockwell and Westlink had similar vibes. Kind of like, built around the same time, kind of same, and a lot of the charm I feel is still in the building, even though it looks different inside, but it still feels like, "Oh, this is like, my library, it just got a really nice facelift," and with all the stuff and like, hopefully, like, the neighborhood and community enjoys it.

Kyle Holly, voiceover: Oh yeah, oh yeah. I'm really personally excited about the video games at Westlink.

Daniel Pewewardy, voiceover: That's cool.

Kyle Holly, voiceover: We have it here at the downtown library but it's only for, like, the teen area. But over at Westlink, families can play video games too.

Daniel Pewewardy, voiceover: That's cool. We just did a program where we had video games. We had Mario Kart in the conference center, and the Youth Services has this new thing called, like, a Nex Playground. Have you seen this?

Kyle Holly, voiceover: Yes, yeah.

Daniel Pewewardy, voiceover: It is like, like, it's, like, the Switch, it basically has a camera on it and like, it's all like, you can play Fruit Ninja, you can play Whac-a-Mole. It's all like motion games.

Kyle Holly, voiceover: It's like the old Xbox Kinect.

Daniel Pewewardy, voiceover: Yeah.

Kyle Holly, voiceover: Yeah, that camera, motion body sensor.

Daniel Pewewardy, voiceover: Which is fun. And I was like, I want to buy one of these, but it's like, I have an Oculus. I feel like with that thing, you always think, like, "I'm going to, like, do this all the time. I'm gonna get fit." And then it's like, you do it. You're like, that was not fun. I just want to sit on the couch, play Tony Hawk and not move around.

Kyle Holly, voiceover: And read a book, right?

Daniel Pewewardy, voiceover: And read a book.

Kyle Holly, voiceover: Exactly. What's a good book to recommend?

Daniel Pewewardy, voiceover: So today on the podcast, we have, we have Laurie Dove. She's, funny story is I actually met Laurie way back in 2006 when I was in school. I was doing broadcast and journalism at Butler Community College, proud alum. And I had a summer internship working for F5 magazine, which Laurie was head of at the time. She let me be a movie reviewer, which I don't know if letting a 20-year-old have access to print was a good idea on her behalf, but I appreciated the experience, and Laurie wrote a book called Mask of the Deer Woman. So Laurie is a reporter and editor who has worked and appeared in numerous publications and garnered several honors for her journalism. She graduated with a master's degree from Harvard Extension University in creative writing and literature, and she's an adjunct professor who currently lives and writes in Kansas. So let's go ahead and talk to Laurie.

Daniel Pewewardy: Hello and welcome. I have Laurie Dove here today. Thank you for joining us, Laurie.

Laurie Dove: It is my pleasure. I'm so excited to be here with you today. I'm a big fan, so I'm excited to talk about Mask of the Deer Woman and everything that goes with that.

Daniel Pewewardy: That's, yeah, it's really awesome because actually I'm excited to have you on the podcast. We actually met before when I was in college. You were running a little newspaper in town, like an alternative weekly, and you let me be the movie reviewer for the paper. And that was like, so it's really cool to actually reunite after almost 20 years.

Laurie Dove: I think so too. You were so brilliant at it, so I'm so excited to see what you're doing now. So it's just a joy for me to be here.

Daniel Pewewardy: Yeah, yeah. I'm excited to interview you. So you just wrote this book, Mask of the Deer Woman. Can you give us, tell us what it's about and give us a little bit of the details?

Laurie Dove: Yes, so Mask of the Deer Woman follows a detective from Chicago named Carrie Starr. And after a questionable on-the-job shooting and the death of her teenage daughter, she leaves the state of Illinois in kind of a cloud and takes a job of last resort, which is how she thinks of it. And it is a Bureau of Indian Affairs tribal marshal position on a reservation in Oklahoma.

And the story then follows this terrible grief that she's mired in, and also the fact that she's immediately dropped into a situation in which she has no cultural experience but a familial tie. Her father grew up on this reservation, which she suspects maybe gave her the edge in getting that job, but he never spoke of it when he raised her in Chicago, so there is really no personal experience that she remembers there and she doesn't have a lot of knowledge about the place.

When she arrives on the Salequa nation, which is a fictional reserve in Oklahoma, she is immediately embroiled in the case of a missing college student. And this, of course, brings up all kinds of issues of grief and redemption for her, and as she is investigating this missing student and really coming into an understanding of the incredible scope, the devastating impact of missing and murdered Indigenous women in the entire country, she feels lost. She feels like an outsider because she is. And she becomes increasingly haunted by a mystical being, by Deer Woman. She doesn't know if, whether Deer Woman is there to protect her or to avenge all of the lost daughters that Starr could never bring home, including her own. And that is really where the story goes.

Daniel Pewewardy: Awesome, yeah. So like, yeah, I read the book, and it was very like... yeah, being Native, it was really, it's really cool to see, like mainstream, like media representation. And so at the end of your book, you do mention, like, you were Indigenous, but you're from -- you have Indigenous heritage but you were adopted. So like, kind of like how Starr was disconnected from her community and kind of like re-engaging it. Did you feel that writing this book was kind of a way for you to kind of connect to some of your Indigenous heritage?

Laurie Dove: I felt like it was an exploration of these really big questions I had about my life. And this character, Carrie Starr, which I thought was such an interesting character, really allowed me to ask these big and difficult questions about community and being unfamiliar with the people that you come from. And so, like you mentioned, I have Indigenous heritage, but I was adopted at birth in a closed adoption and raised by Mennonite farmers.

So like Carrie Starr I have no personal experience with the culture. And as a journalist, for, you know, 20-some years, 30-some that I've been, I really wrote this book in a way that kind of mirrored my journalistic process, which is to follow things where they lead. And I didn't have all the answers, and I didn't know where it was going to go, but I was willing to be curious and follow this. And I think that that has allowed me to write this first book with really that outsider perspective that Carrie Starr has, and I'm excited to see where she goes next and how she reconnects.

Daniel Pewewardy: Speaking of being a reporter, there's like a true crime element to this that, being a reporter -- do you were there like... I know, like the Osage murders for in the reign of terror in the 1920s has like, ties to, like, mineral rights and things. Was there any, like, real world examples that you kind of like looked at being like... I know, like a lot of detective writers and things that do have like the background in reporting do kind of like base their mysteries on, like, actual crimes. Was there a lot, did you research it, were there any actual, like crimes or anything in particular that you like researched in writing this or took from?

Laurie Dove: Well, that's such a great question because that is really the way that my mind works after all of these years. But with this, what I really did was not focus on any one story that had been reported or historical event that I'd heard. And the reason for that is that one of the undercurrents of this entire book, which is missing Indigenous women, is so prevalent, and everyone in these communities knows someone personally who has gone missing, and they have told me as much. And that, to me, allows for this expansion of an individual story to represent a broader crisis that is going on.

Daniel Pewewardy: So yeah, let's go ahead and talk about missing and murdered Indigenous women and missing and murdered Indigenous people. This, like, this is -- I'm like, aware of, I've been aware of this for a while. Being like Comanche, I've heard about like, the like, the numbers, especially coming out of Canada and Pacific Northwest. Can you like, kind of, for the listeners who are listening to this, can we kind of, can you elaborate on what MMIW is and kind of, like, tell us more a little about it?

Laurie Dove: Yes. And I do want to be clear that although in the book I focus on missing and murdered Indigenous women, there are other ways that we could and should be talking about it in our local and national discourse, because it is missing and murdered Indigenous relatives, all people, two-spirit. There is an entire epidemic that's a public health crisis that's happening. I focus particularly on women in this book because it really served as something I could lift as an example of something that was happening, and not that I was unaware of this crisis.

But the more I dug into it, the more I realized how little it's being discussed in the mainstream and how we don't even have a handle nationally on how many people who are Indigenous are genuinely missing. There is a national database that lists, you know, 5,700, 5,800 at any given time that are missing, and another national database that has less than 200. So in the book, I say Indigenous women disappear twice: once in real life and once in the media. But truthfully, it's a third time because it's in the data as well. So we have all these discrepancies and those, it was interesting for me to be able to put as part of the story. The story is fictional, but having that real world issue that hopefully will raise some awareness in even in some small way I think was really important to me as I wrote this.

Daniel Pewewardy: And I think, yeah, I know that the number -- I know, like, when you talk about, like, the numbers there is, like, I don't think... I think I read or saw something in a documentary once about, like, there is no missing person database, or there's like, there, like, there's not a national missing person database. And like, the numbers for like, missing people all around the board is, like, we don't know. Like, and so like, I think, and it's just like, kind of like, amazing, like, especially when you get to niche populations that have a lot of missing people. And so like you talked, kind of mentioned it a little bit, but you said some of -- have you had any feedback from Indigenous people or groups about the like, kind of, like, pushing MMIW, like, into the forefront with, like, a book that's like, you know, like a mainstream novel?

Laurie Dove: Well, I've heard a lot of encouragement about including this issue in a national reaching book because it's, there are pockets of information, whether it's local. Here in Wichita, we have a local MMIW chapter and I was just visiting with them earlier this week. And I was in Minnesota and I was looking at what a taskforce did there to find out more data on their missing Indigenous women, which, by the way, every month for the past decade, there have been anywhere from like 25 to 50 Indigenous women missing every month. But you're right: there are these huge, huge discrepancies in data, and there are gaps in jurisdiction and reporting and all of these things. But no one truly knows what the number is of missing people. In fact, in 2019 I believe -- it might have been '20 -- Savannah's Act was a Senate bill that, for the first time, it required that tribal enrollment information be added to a Department of Justice database. And so these very basic things are not happening consistently.

Daniel Pewewardy: Yeah, and just like, I don't want to, like... personally recently, or my family, like my dad did the DNA test, like Ancestry, and so we kind of got, he got, like, ended up getting pinged to... we found out we were related to -- my dad, who's Native, we found out we were related to a Jane Doe. We have no idea who she is. And it's like, and it's, she was obviously, well, like, based off how they found, they're pretty sure she died by murder. And it's, it's really sad and like, but there's like, they don't know who she is and so like reading this and kind of experiencing, like the slow pace of the federal investigation and how they're investigating -- and I really did feel kind of like that's something you did good at capturing, about how like we, like they, like have all this information and they're working with, like, genetic forensics. And just sort of, like exposure.

It's, if you want to learn more about it, there's also true crime podcasters that talk about her, so I don't like mind mentioning her. Dora Doe from Dora, Arkansas, is, that's the specific Jane Doe I'm talking about. But no, like, it's been, like, a couple of years now, and like, we kind of found out, and then it's like, every six months, it's like, oh, there's... and then it's just kind of dried up. And I think there's like, especially in, like, I'm in a very lucky situation where it wasn't a close member of my family, but to, like, or anyone that we knew or lost, but just knowing that we're related to someone that no one's claimed is, like, heartbreaking enough for my family. And we've been like, kind of avid -- like, doing our best to kind of, like, get the word out and, like, encourage people to do DNA testing and things. And so like, yeah, it's very frustrating that this is something that isn't taken seriously. And like, and I know Native people aren't a monument. And like, I don't speak for all Native people, but I do think, like, I really enjoyed seeing that you brought the issue out into the, you know, the public, because it's, again, it's like, something that we don't talk about.

And I so as far as like advocacy is, do you have any like for people that like hear about this and want to learn more about this? Or, do you know of any like you mentioned the local MMIW groups. I know at one point there was two, is it -- do you know of any like organizations people can like, kind of follow, or also any like legislation going on right now that people can support, or anything like that, that you can suggest?

Laurie Dove: That is such a -- yes, that is such a great question because I, my biggest hope is that people would read the book and, in some way, take action in real life. And some of the resources that I've checked out that are on a national level are the National Indigenous Women's Resource Center and the Coalition to Stop Violence Against Native Women. Those are really good places to get information and to learn more about the situation. And for people who aren't familiar with it, that's where I suggest that they start: by learning. Because it is such a multi-faceted and complicated issue that has a simple, terrible end for women. And so it really requires people to educate themselves when they want to become advocates.

The other thing that I hope happens, and this was really more than I expected, but a 92-year-old woman picked up my book. She read it in one sitting, she read it overnight, and in the morning when she was finished reading it, she immediately donated a semester of college to the American Indian Education Fund in the name of a character in my book, Genoa. And I think I cried for three days over that because that was so meaningful to me, and that was more than I could have expected, but it was the absolute best outcome that I could imagine. So I think supporting education initiatives is really important. And like you mentioned earlier, connecting wherever you are with a local MMMIW, MMIR, an organization like that.

Daniel Pewewardy: Thank you. And that's, that story is really, that's really cool that she did that.

Laurie Dove: Yeah.

Daniel Pewewardy: Yeah. So you have this background as to, like, I guess, like to move away -- so, like, you have the this background as a journalist. And now you're writing in fiction. How has that transition been for you?

Laurie Dove: Well, it was always the dream. I remember being a very young, I was an early reader and an early writer, as I'm sure you were too, and I had this moment very early on where I knew I wanted to write books. What I loved about the ability to write, especially as I got into journalism with my undergrad degree, was this ability to ask people questions about their lives and things that had happened to them and things that they cared about, and honor them in the best way I could by telling their stories. And I had a lot of meaning in that. But all along in the background, I really wanted to get back to writing fiction, and I'm -- which I didn't get back to until I was in my 50s. But I'm so happy that it happened that way because when I turned to fiction, it really allowed me to approach it in the way I'd approached all of these stories all of these years: with curiosity, with big questions, with just following things where they led. And that was really the approach that I took to this book.

Daniel Pewewardy: So did you ever like, feel like having those journalistic skills helped you kind of work through writer's block? And like...?

Laurie Dove: For sure, because, you know, as a reporter, as a journalist, generally, I'm covering things that have already happened. I'm uncovering things. And with this, there were so many decisions to make because I'm deciding what's happening in this world. And I really had to trick myself to get around that. I would have to, like, give myself assignments so that I could take away that part of my brain that was like, "Oh, this could go in 50 different directions." And so that helped. It also helped that, as a reporter, I learned to write anywhere under any conditions, and that really served me well when I was writing fiction. I'm used to writing in chaotic environments or with a lot of noise. I don't have to be in a special place to write, so that was really helpful, too.

Daniel Pewewardy: And you, you also, like went back to school in the last few years, and you went you have a master's degree in creative writing and literature from Harvard Extension, and you graduated in 2022. Can you talk about that experience and like, what inspired you to pursue that opportunity as well as like, how do you feel like that academic experience has helped shape you as an author?

Laurie Dove: It was such a beautiful, rewarding experience. I have been saying since the moment I went to commencement, I just wish I could do it all over again. It was so incredible. I had worked as a journalist all of these years, but the novel always got pushed to the bottom of my list. And I thought, you know, if I'm really going to make this happen, it's time to give it the structure and time that it deserves. So I entered this graduate program at Harvard, and it did indeed give me that structure. It forced me to set aside time to do this thing that I loved but never seemed to make time for in the rest of my life, and I walked away from that program with not only some really amazing craft knowledge, but a group of writer friends that we've remained in touch. In fact, they came in from all over the country for my book launch here in Wichita, and it was such an incredible experience that I would highly recommend it to anyone who's even considering it. It was so rewarding to walk onto that campus, walk across that stage, and then a few weeks after that, turn 50. I felt like for the first time I'd fully walked into my life.

Daniel Pewewardy: That's, that's really awesome. I was actually in Boston recently on the Harvard, the Harvard campus. And I don't, I don't know if I sent it to you, but I did see Mask of the Deer Woman in the Harvard bookstore and I took a picture. So I will make sure to send that to you.

Laurie Dove: Did you really?

Daniel Pewewardy: Yeah.

Laurie Dove: Oh my gosh.

Daniel Pewewardy: I will make sure I send that to you. And yeah, that's a, that's a really awesome -- like, I've also like, been considering going and getting, like, doing, like, a writing, like, MFA or something. So it's really cool that, like... yeah, as someone who kind of, like, gave up a little bit to, like, focus on other things, I actually, I did a fellowship recently. It's always, like, really cool to see people, like, continue through their life and always continue, like, having these educational experiences. And like, I got my master's, and then I was just kind of like, I love -- and now I'm at this point, like, I like school a lot, and like, I don't... like, and that's kind of what's been pushing me to go back to school on some level. Like, I don't know. Like, I don't want a career change necessarily. I just want to go back to school for a bit. So, like, yeah... and that's really cool that you have this, like, community. And have they all, like, read your book, and have they like, has it been kind of, like, have the feedback from your cohort been pretty good?

Laurie Dove: Yes, they are so supportive, and they're all so talented in their own right. I cannot wait to see their books come into the world and be able to celebrate them. It has really been such a wonderful experience to be in community with other writer. And I, like you, I would stay in school the rest of my life. I would be a perpetual student, especially in this field, because this ability to read, to talk about the books that we're reading, to write, to read about writing, I mean, the whole immersion, I would just do it all over again.

Daniel Pewewardy: So we'll go ahead and take a break and we will come back and have a few more questions for you, Laurie. So you're listening to Read Return Repeat with author Laurie Dove. We'll be right back.

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Daniel Pewewardy: And we're back. And you're listening to Read Return Repeat with Laurie, I have Laurie Dove here, author of Mask of the Deer Woman. And so we've been talking about, there's the book. And so we've been talking about Mask of the Deer Woman, which I read it. I will like, I'm not going to critique it too much. I do have one, one critique. Your, the town is, like, on the border of Kansas and Oklahoma, correct?

Laurie Dove: Yes.

Daniel Pewewardy: Is it western Kansas or, like, eastern Kansas?

Laurie Dove: It's actually eastern.

Daniel Pewewardy: Okay. This is my one critique. If you kind of mention a lot of Sooner memorabilia, kind of a couple of times, probably would be Cowboys. Like northern Oklahoma --

Laurie Dove: You can see why. You know, it's everywhere over here.

Daniel Pewewardy: Okay, yeah, I was like... I was like, I don't... like, the I-40, depending on what, like, it's like 35 and 40 -- like, Sooners is like three-quarters of the state, and then it's like, but honestly, it's all Sooner country. So I just was like, "There's no Cowboys --" I went to Oklahoma State so I'm obviously biased.

Laurie Dove: Oh dear. I have really messed up. I, this is bad.

Daniel Pewewardy: Yeah. But I, but I also am a house divided because I got my master's from OU. So I both, I'm both. I root for Oklahoma State when it comes to, like, sports, because they're typically the underdog and it's always and it's always more fun. But I just watched them lose on Tuesday night at the NIT so. Anyway, just wanted to get that off my chest. That was one thing I was like, I don't know if this would be Sooner country. I'll ask.

Laurie Dove: No, I appreciate it. It's important for me to know, yes.

Daniel Pewewardy: So in Mask of the Deer Woman, you have some political intrigue going on in the, in the book. And there's -- and you were a mayor for a while, so you, you have this experience working as, like a journalist and as a mayor. And so, like, you kind of have this, like, this back seat bargaining going on. And you have a tribal chairman, you have a mayor, you have an oil tycoon. I won't give too much away. So did your experience working in like small town politics have any influence on writing the book?

Laurie Dove: Well, it was really kind of the opposite experience of what happens in the book. The book was purely my imagination with some of these hinky things going on. But what I discovered work -- I was on city council for two years and I was mayor for four. And really what I discovered is towns, especially the size of the one I was mayor of, which is about 7,500 people, the city government is everyone, and it is really comprised of people who are good people doing the best they can in sometimes really tricky situations. So while none of the corruption and things that I talk about in the book happened in real life in my city, what it did was give me some insight into the systems and the decision-making processes, and the way communities come together or not as they're working on these big projects that really feel like there's a lot at stake.

Daniel Pewewardy: And that's something I did kind of like that you -- I don't think any of your characters outside of, like, obvious villains are actually necessarily bad. I think there's a lot of moral gray characters, and it's kind of like a utilitarian argument, of like short -- or like, making decisions that look bad in the short term but are good for the long term. And so like, is that like, when you kind of look at like the... when you kind of look at Marshal Starr's character as well as kind of like making decisions in the heat of the moment that obviously changed a life, is that, would you say that's one of the themes of the book is kind of like, like looking at like, how the -- like the past and the future and like the decisions we make?

Laurie Dove: You know, the book is really one of contrast, and what I like to explore is that space in between those things. And you mentioned Marshal Carrie Starr, she is a person of contrast. She's from Chicago, but she has a place here in Oklahoma. And really, all of the characters and even the settings have these built-in oppositions. And I like exploring that tension. I like that it exists because I feel like that's real life. There's a lot of things that don't have a clear-cut answer, that even when you're trying to do the right thing, doesn't always work out that way. And the ambiguity of that, I think, is real life too. I think we don't have all the answers and there are things that we don't and can't understand. And as smart as people are, it's impossible, really, for us to tell the future. So all we're working with are what we imagine it to be. And that's all these characters are really working with as well.

Daniel Pewewardy: And I, yeah, I'm a big political intrigue fan, and it's always fun when you like -- it felt like, like, I... you did a pretty good job at like, dealing with, I thought it was, like, very realistic as, like, as far as small town politics and like, what's best for this city and what's best for the reservation. And I just have to say that your depiction of a small-town library was pretty spot on.

Laurie Dove: I love libraries.

Daniel Pewewardy: I will, nothing will take me out of a book faster than like, someone writing about a library that has not been to one recently. And you can pretty obviously tell when they're talking about like... they'll just like, kind of like, either like, you're describing, like, the librarian as just, like a stereotype, or there's like, talking... like, for whatever reason, you could just like, "This person hasn't even been to a library," like, and so I did, enjoy that. I was like, "Yeah, this seems like it would be what library, I can, like, visualize this, like one-room, kind of like area, this for this small-town set."

Laurie Dove: Oh, thank you for that. That means a lot to me, because I love libraries of all shapes and sizes. And so when I was thinking about, what kind of library would this town have, it just, that's how it came together for me. So I'm happy to hear that.

Daniel Pewewardy: Yeah, yeah, I could tell you put thought into it. So as far as we can talk about, like, Mask of the Deer Woman specifically. So like, for the like, for those that are, like, not familiar, like Native communities, like you have to be like, kind of very careful on how you talk, like, especially when you're writing fiction. And like, I know, like, there's like taboos in cultures. Like, even like being Comanche, like, there's like a certain taboo of like, people that I won't -- there's like, mythological things you can talk about and I can't talk about. And like, I won't even like, mention like, mine. Like our version, I'll just say our version of the Fae. I won't say what we call them, but it's like, that's like, such a taboo and you're not supposed to mention it.

And so, like, I know a lot of times Native writers will like, kind of like -- and you kind of did this. You kind of created a Deer Woman that had its own mythology. Because you have like, a tribe, a fictional tribe that you kind of created, like a hybridization and kind of gave its own lore. So I guess my question is kind of like, how did you approach this and like, how did you like what, what like kind of inspired your story? And how did you like balance of, like, including this character in your novel but doing it in a way that's like, respectful? And so I guess I was just curious about the process of that.

Laurie Dove: Oh yes, I love this question. And the way Deer Woman came into the story was such a natural and organic way that I'm not even sure how she really ended up there, except I was already writing about deer because that's what I was thinking of for the area, and then it really just came all together. But it was important to me to reflect that Deer Woman isn't my story. Deer Woman is a part of many nations, and has been well before I was alive and will be well after I'm gone, and I wanted to reflect a Deer Woman that really served the story of the way that women are existing in these two planes: one of safety and one of danger.

And I like Deer Woman as someone who can both exact revenge or some kind of punishment or justice, and Deer Woman who is a protector. Because as a mother, I have, I have all of these daughters, and I know all of these other mothers and fathers too who -- but I think for women especially, there are definitely those two sides of it where we're so protective, but also there's a justice aspect of it too. So for Deer Woman to embody those things that I think we see often in women and mothers in a generally speaking, was really important to me.

Daniel Pewewardy: That's, yeah, that's really, that's really, that's good that you considered that and kind of like looked at it as this, like, maternal protector. And I like that. I liked how you handled the Deer Woman like... my like, being like a Native person and seeing, like, watching media and things, it's like, it's always nice, like -- and I feel like that's something I just have to say. Like, you being an Indigenous author, like, I feel that, like you did a really good job of, like, incorporating these things in ways that was, was tasteful.

Like, again, like, I only speak for myself, but having watched like, I think the first experience I had with like Deer Woman was like a John Landis episode of like Masters of Horror, which is like was written, directed by like a, like a 60-year-old white guy. So it's like seeing like Indigenous authors and Indigenous filmmakers and TV's kind of like being able to reclaim their stories is, like, really important. And again, I think it's just like you have to, like, the balance of like, making sure that you're working with something that's not taboo and things, and I see a lot of other Natives, creators doing that too. Like, I think, like Reservation Dogs, I think they're, they have, like a Sasquatch character, and they call him, like hairy man. But the way they handled it was not to, like, be disrespectful to any like particular culture. So, yeah, anyway, I just thought that was really cool to kind of hear how that came about.

So do you have any like books or authors you currently -- we're time, we're right at the end here. So normally we'll ask our guests if they have any recommendations, like, what are you reading right now?

Laurie Dove: Yes. So I am looking forward to another book coming out from Nick Medina. I really have enjoyed his. The next one he's got coming out this fall is called The Whistler. And another favorite author of mine, Vanessa Lillie, she has The Bone Thief that's coming out. And Mona Susan Power has a new book, The Grass Dancer, that I'm really looking forward to. But I will read anything. Stephen Graham Jones, Tommy Orange, Louise Erdrich, I mean, the, you know, canon. And I am always looking forward to their books. I just read The Indian Card by Carrie Lowry -- let's see, what is her last name? Carrie Lowry Schuettpelz, and it was very good. But, yeah, I'm always looking for new things to read and new authors to support.

Daniel Pewewardy: Is Nick Medina is, that's, like, Indian Burial Ground author, right?

Laurie Dove: Yes, Sisters of a Lost Nation, yes.

Daniel Pewewardy: That's, yeah, that's on my list of reading. And Stephen Graham Jones is, I've been like, wanting to do the whole My Heart is a Chainsaw trilogy, and I haven't. So but that's really cool. Thank you for those recommendations. I'll definitely have to go back, because it's like, so hard to keep up with, like, all the different Indigenous authors that are coming out right now. So do you have more plans for Marshal Starr? Is that, is this, are we going to see more? Is that what you're planning next?

Laurie Dove: I do. As a matter of fact, I'm very excited to see what she's up to next. I am just wrapping up the second book in this which is now a series. And so we'll see what Carrie Starr is up to. I'm sending that to my publisher here in a week or so. And so we have a third book on the horizon.

Daniel Pewewardy: That's, that's awesome. I can't wait to read it. Thank you so much, Laurie, for joining us. It's been a real pleasure to reconnect and a good, congratulations on the success with the book, and I look forward to following your trajectory into the being a novelist, it's really cool. So thanks for --

Laurie Dove: Thank you. It means so much to me to be here with you. I appreciate it. Thank you.

Daniel Pewewardy: Thank you. Well, you are listening to Read Return Repeat. Again, thank you, Laurie, for joining us. We'll see you guys next time. Have a good day.

VOICEOVER: Did you know that the Wichita Public Library has a wealth of local history resources that you can use? From old yearbooks to newspaper archives to genealogy databases, you can find it all here. Located on the second floor of the Advanced Learning Library, our knowledgeable staff can help you with every task, from finding newspaper articles that made Wichita history to researching your family tree. For more information, visit wichitalibrary.org/Research/LocalHistory.

Daniel Pewewardy, voiceover: All right, that was our interview with Laurie Dove. That was a really fun interview and it was really good to reconnect with her. Thank you, Laurie, for joining us for today's episode, and shout out to the production crew at Wichita Public Library for being, helping with the podcast. And Kyle, thank you for helping too.

Kyle Holly, voiceover: Oh yeah, no problem.

Daniel Pewewardy, voiceover: A list of the books discussed today in today's episode can be found in the accompanying show notes. To request any of the books you heard about in today's episode, visit wichitalibrary.org or call us at (316) 261-8500. I'm definitely going to check that list out. A lot of Indigenous authors were mentioned, so definitely, that's right up my alley.

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